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Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiute (Read 16141 times)
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Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiute
05/29/12 at 18:29:10
 
There have been a lot of rumors and much discussion about 60" trails on the Paiute system.

No!  The entire Paiute Trail system has not been opened to 60" vehicles.

Yes!  Some trails were converted to being open to vehicles 60" or less in width.  These routes were mostly old roads that had been made into 50" trails when the Forest Service originally went to the 50" Rule.  Now that each Forest had the option to designate routes to accomodate appropriate use some of these old roads were reassessed and designated as open to vehicles 60" or less in width.  The Forest Service took five years to assess all of their routes in this area and made their decision based on practicality, use patterns, safety and community desires.

The following Paiute Trails are open only to vehicles 50" or less in width:  Max Reid section of the 01, Sam Stowe section of the 01, Koosharem Creek section of the 01, Chalk Creek section of PST03, PST07, a portion of PST 40, PST41, a portion of PST42, PST66, PST97, PST33, most of PST53, most of PST54, PST87, PST89, PST61, most of PST73, PST67, PST68, PST88, PST26, PST31, most of PST65, and PST79.

The following Paiute Trails are open to vehicles 60" or less in width:  the Wade's Canyon section of the 01, Kingston Canyon section of the 01, Rigger Park section of the 01, Sawmill Ridge section of the 01, Merchant Creek section of PST05, PST27, sections of PST34, section of PST35, section of PST74 between Hoover's and Marysvale, PST21 between Hoover's and Big Rock Candy Mountain, and PST63.

The following Paiute Trails are trails open to all motorized vehicles:  section of PST05 "The Face Trail" and a section of PST74 "Deer Creek".

The following routes are roads that are part of the Paiute Trail system and are open to all vehicles:  PST00, most of the Paiute01, PST02, PST03 (via FS100), PST04, PST06, PST10, PST11, PST13, PST15, PST22, PST24, PST25, PST29, PST32, most of PST35, PST36, PST37, a portion of PST40, most of PST42, PST44, PST47, PST52, PST55, PST56, PST64, PST70, PST72, PST76, PST77, PST78, PST86, and PST96.

There you have it!  Now it's all clear as mud and I'm sure no one will ever have another question. Wink
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #1 - 05/29/12 at 20:39:58
 
Bryan , did you do all of that off the top of your head ?

Personally , I think this should be a sticky . There is a ton of info here and it shouldn't end up in the bottom of a pile where no one can find it.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #2 - 05/31/12 at 16:26:54
 
I pretty much have it memorized now.  Been working on it for a long time and I'm glad to have the Travel Plan finished!
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #3 - 05/31/12 at 19:07:27
 
So what I'm wondering is does anyone know approximately how many miles of trail exist in the paiute system that is 50" or less? How many miles of road that is over 50" inches?
Seems like you keep losing trails to roads? Embarrassed
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #4 - 06/07/12 at 10:14:26
 
We haven't lost hardly any trails to roads.  As a matter of fact there have been quite a few roads that have been converted to trails.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #5 - 06/07/12 at 15:57:28
 
Ok, does anyone know how many miles of less than 50 inch trails there are in the Paiute system?  Shocked
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #6 - 06/07/12 at 16:31:25
 
According to Bryan's list and rounding mileages to the nearest mile, or 1/2 mile in some cases, I come up with roughly 131 miles of 50" trails. Just under 900 miles was the last official count I heard was the Paiute Trail System total mileage. (not counting other Fishlake Forest District trails) So that not very many that are restricted to 50".
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #7 - 11/24/13 at 18:31:53
 
Ok I hate to ask but i'm thinking about buying Polaris rzr. The two that I'm looking at is the 800S and the 900. The 800S is 60.5 inches wide and the 900 is 64 inches wide. I'm planning a trip to Marysvale next year how strict is the 60 inch rule. We only come once year the rest of the time it won't matter what size I have, but I would like to bring it there. I have been three times on wheelers this would be my first with sxs.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #8 - 11/25/13 at 08:53:44
 
On the Fishlake National Forest there are 2,262 miles of road open to all motorized vehicles, 65 miles of trail open to all motorized vehicles, 59 miles of trail open to vehicles 60" or less in width and 504 miles of trail open to vehicles 50" or less in width.  There is something for everyone.  The MTP regulations are final and this is how it is.  Don't take a wider vehicle where it is prohibited.  If you get caught you will get a ticket.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #9 - 11/25/13 at 10:31:59
 
And screw it up for the rest of us.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #10 - 11/25/13 at 15:52:49
 
Just wondering if they would bicker over a 1/2 inch that's all but it sounds like they will. So I hope these maps will show all this.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #11 - 12/16/13 at 14:31:55
 
Depending on on the LEO.  If he plays by the book or will let it slide.  I would not let slide.  The width requirement is their for a reason.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #12 - 12/16/13 at 19:12:04
 
I have a question about the 50 inch rule, is the measurment taken at the tire width or the widest point of the unit?  Our RZR-800 with Polaris doors are over 50 inch at the widest point, legale for 50 inch trail?
Thank you
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #13 - 12/16/13 at 19:49:22
 
I would answer that by saying that your RZR would have to fit through a 50" gate . There is usually a teeny bit of leeway to them but don't count on it . So even though your tires would fit through I envision you not being able to fit .
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #14 - 12/16/13 at 20:48:35
 
Guess it is good that I left the E-clips off of the hinge pins, or get it straight and hit it hard the first time then it should fit after that, in the machining world that would be called "field fit"
Thanks.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the
Reply #15 - 12/28/13 at 22:24:13
 
I am shopping for a 50 side-by-side so I dropped into the Polaris Dealer in St. George Mesquite while I was down there to ride ATVs last week. I was talking to the salesman there and what I saw and heard was a little surprising and in fact I doubt I ever go by there again.

The majority of the machines they had were wider than 50 and when I said I was only interested in a 50 machine he showed me an 800 54 that had been converted to a 50.  It looked very nice and I would have been interested except for what came next!

He asked why I only wanted a 50 machine and I told him the trails I really enjoyed riding were the 50 trails in Utah. He said that Nevada and Arizona had no where the number of 50 trails we had in Utah and he said that was really not be a concern as the 50 restrictions were not enforced in Utah. BULL CRAP!!!

He went on to say that he felt the 50 trail restrictions in Utah and Idaho were dumb and that they should be open to all widths. He said that when he rode in Utah he quite often drove around or defeated the 50 gates and that was not a problem. He said there were lawsuits being filed to open all the trails to larger side-by-sides and he did not know why that was so much of a concern for me.

I have friends in the Forest Service and BLM and they have all said if 50 trails were to come up for review to make wider, that the environmental groups would have a much greater opportunity to have trails closed and that we would likely loose trails. The Forest Service has already said the environment around some of the 50 trails was too fragile for anything larger and that the trail would just be closed before opening to anything bigger.

I personally like the 50 trails we have there are plenty of trails to go around for all sizes and to suggest larger side-by-sides were not a problem on 50 trails is in my opinion false advertising and a lie. Smiley

I sure hope he just stays out of Utah!
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #16 - 12/28/13 at 22:26:03
 
My mistake!  It was the salesman in Mesquite that said that...not St. George.

Sorry St. George!

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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #17 - 12/29/13 at 07:31:03
 
It makes me wonder how many times and to how many people he has opened up with this rhetoric . When many people go in to buy a machine , there is a certain amount of trust given to a salesperson . They are considered  a professional because that's what they do everyday .

I wonder what his boss would say if he knew ? What about the owner ? I know you know how to write letters . Just keep it less than 13 pages .  Grin

You don't want a RZR anyway , do you ?  Roll Eyes
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #18 - 12/29/13 at 08:01:49
 
Shopping...pondering...saving pennies...and questioning my sanity. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #19 - 12/29/13 at 08:47:09
 
Well...I took your advise, but in a slightly different way.  I sent them a link to this thread.

Hope I don't get the sales guy in trouble but the statements he was making are not true and someone else that might take that as coming from a "professional" might get a ticket and give the rest of us a black eye.

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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #20 - 12/29/13 at 10:01:03
 
Unfortunately this is a common problem . And the new owner gets a big surprise when they start to run their machine . Maybe it will hit home when they find out it cost them money ?

I'll bet that if an organization went out and drafted a letter about the proper selling of  sxs  that you could get a whole lot of land managers to sign it . It could then be sent to dealers to clarify what the rules are . I'll bet they would even  put up the money for postage . What do you think ?
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #21 - 12/29/13 at 10:54:50
 
I love that Glenn I have had dealers tell me the same thing and they have even went as far as telling me that the BLM and State parks are not enforcing the laws.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #22 - 12/30/13 at 12:35:41
 
I am not in the habit of starting a flame war on Forums or any other place but I fail to see what a extra 10 inches in width would mean to the ecology of an area.  Maybe in certain special circumstances it would but I venture to say that the Forest Service is trying to keep a division in place between quads and sxs.  I have watched just about all of Midnight Riders videos and very entertaining they are and I can see that a few of the trails are just meant for a 50" or smaller vehicle especially they ones zig zaging up the side of a hill, but on the other hand if it  was not  for the gates a 60" machine could take the trail with no problems.  Admittedly 3 wheelers then quads were there long before sxs but I think it is a waste of trail to have just one type of vehicle allowed to use it.  Don't want to offend anyone this is just my opinion, back in the my younger days when I rode dirt bikes in Ohio it was a chore just to find an area to ride dirt at all, and then moving to Az. and having many miles of trails to ride is like heaven, except in the summer when it is Hell in Az., any how this is just how I feel about it
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the
Reply #23 - 12/30/13 at 13:45:49
 
No offense taken and none intended.
 
My only real concern is what happens when the Forest Service or BLM revisit a travel plan.  I am pretty sure changing a track width would necessitate the review and hundreds and hundreds of hours have been spent creating those travel plans.  The majority of the time, from what I have seen over the last 20 years, is that we will lose trail when that happens.  Is it worth it? Undecided Undecided Undecided

We pick where we want to ride by the machine we purchase, it is as simple as that.  I don't ride my ATV on single track trails and I would sure hate to have to turn in a fellow rider who is running a 60" machine on a 50" trail.  Please don't take me wrong...I will.

And, to have machines sold with the understanding that the same laws I abide by don't have to be followed by others is not right.  
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #24 - 12/30/13 at 15:20:42
 
Amen to Chris' comments!
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #25 - 12/31/13 at 11:04:14
 
I also say Amen to what SARrider has to say except that we are the people that the BLM and the Forest Service work for, never forget that they do not rule us we rule them.  The eco freaks are so wrong about 99% of what they say or think (remember Al Gore and global warming which btw is not happening), nature extinguishes more species naturally then man has.  We need to elect people who have our interest on their agenda not just special interest groups
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #26 - 01/03/14 at 11:45:56
 
mudcat wrote on 11/24/13 at 18:31:53:
Ok I hate to ask but i'm thinking about buying Polaris rzr. The two that I'm looking at is the 800S and the 900. The 800S is 60.5 inches wide and the 900 is 64 inches wide. I'm planning a trip to Marysvale next year how strict is the 60 inch rule. We only come once year the rest of the time it won't matter what size I have, but I would like to bring it there. I have been three times on wheelers this would be my first with sxs.


Friends and I are planning a trip from KY next fall.  Buddy has a Ranger that is 60 at the wheels but 2" wider at the doors.  Are there gates for the 60 inch trails and would we fit.  We have the map but don't want to backtrack after finding out we can't squeeze through.  We don't have this problem riding elsewhere.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #27 - 01/03/14 at 16:44:52
 
John ,


  There are no gates for 60" trails to worry about . There are only gates on 50" trails  .
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #28 - 01/15/14 at 07:52:56
 
Wink
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #29 - 01/15/14 at 21:48:51
 
I always thought that if it was a 50 inch trail only 50 and less inch wide machines were supposed to ride those trail, gated or not.  The same with 60 inch trails, they are for 60 inch and less regardless of there being a gate or not.  But then again that's just me. If everyone played by the rules we wouldn't have to waste money on gates to keep some of the rule benders or breakers off and the money could be used for better things.  soap box I'll step off now.

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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #30 - 02/27/14 at 15:37:49
 
Wink
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the
Reply #31 - 03/03/14 at 17:01:58
 
Once I found out about the 50 inch rule I planned our trip taking that into account. It was easy with the map. We've planned out over 300 miles in 6 trips without covering the same ground twice and not one 50 inch trail. Sure there are some places we can't go but lots of great places we're going to anyway. There are plenty more places I'd like to cover but won't have the time. Why would anyone worry about the rule. Can't wait to get there and ride. soap box

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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #32 - 03/30/14 at 12:58:47
 
I have enjoyed the Paiute and Fishlake trails since 1999, first with quads then five years ago we bought our 50 inch RZR and now with our new Maverick Xxc 60 inch. I  use our RZR when on 50 inch trails and our Maverick everywhere else. I have found that Utah has probably the best marked, mapped and maintained trails anywhere in the west and the least I can do is respect their rules. Those that don't in my opinion threaten all of our future use of those fine trails. Just my 2cents.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the
Reply #33 - 05/03/14 at 18:34:30
 
The misinformation about 50" wide trails being spread by dealerships appears to still be going on. A friend was shopping for a side by side two days ago. He mentioned to the dealership general manager that he thinks that there are too many choices. He couldn't decide whether to get a 800cc 50" wide side by side, or a 800cc 60" wide side by side, or a 900cc or 1000cc 64" wide side by side. The General manager at the dealership told my friend "well don't buy a 50" wide side by side. The Forest Service is in the process of changing all 50" wide trails to 60" wide trails." According to him there is a law that prohibits the Forest Service from using vehicles less than 60" wide, so the Forest Service cannot patrol the 50" wide trails, and they are changing them all to 60" wide trails.

That is what my friend was told. Now considering it comes from a dealership I would automatically assume there is a 90% chance that it is BS. What do you guys say? Are the 50" wide trails going the way of the dinosaur?
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #34 - 05/04/14 at 19:35:37
 
I don't think dirt bikes are 50", and the FS uses the heck out of them. Local forest here just bought a slew of RZR's to replace Rangers.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #35 - 05/04/14 at 22:20:15
 
Well considering the forest service has used ATV's since they were introduced and motorcycles even longer I'd have to say the GM at that dealership is full of BS. My brother inlaw has worked for the Uinta National forest as a part time ranger for decades and his job has been to patrol trails on a motorcycle. The Fishlake Forest service has a slew of ATV's their rangers use all the time so NO I don't believe there is any such law.

The GM was trying to sell the bigger machines because they cost more and his commission is based on a percentage of the final cost. So if he can sell a 15k to 20k machine over a 4k or 5k ATV he'll do his best every time to sell the high end product and steer you past the lower prices machines, even if it means making up things and lying through his teeth to do so. Tell your friend to go back and ask for a copy of that law and see how much he squirms when pressured to back up his lies.
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linda
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #36 - 05/26/14 at 15:44:48
 
carrying flag  Great Info!  We are planning a trip to Piute Trail this September.  Last time out, we had 50" atvs.  Due to health issues we have gone to sxs that's over 50".  I want to order new maps, but wondering if you could recommend which would best cover the trails we can ride.  We are planning to stay in Maryvale.  Thanks for any help!
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Acoustictrout
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the
Reply #37 - 09/21/15 at 13:26:59
 
I agree with the need for 50 inch gates and the need to obey the rules. May I just suggest that the gates should allow a little bit of tolerance so a true 50 inch machine can get through without scraping the plastic if it is not perfectly centered. A 50 inch gate that is actually say, 51 inches will still restrict the 54 inch machines while allowing the 50 inch machine to pass with under-inflated tires or without damaging the body. There are tolerances even on high precision machined parts.

The term "50 inch" should be used as a category and not a precise measurement +/- 1/32".

I guess an alternative is to get a running start at the gate. (Just kidding.)
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #38 - 12/29/15 at 22:01:14
 
SARrider got it right on.

The manufactures and dealers only care about selling machines and they do not care to speak about width, let alone fight for our access to trails. The trails are what they are, and have been.
Just go to any rally, I guided last year at the Bryce Rally, and more and more road machines are showing up. They are not trail machines what so ever. At these rally's you find what I call 'city machines', which are the big two and four ups and all plus 60 inch widths, they have large flag poles when not required, more extra gas than they would need in a week, sound systems, riders wearing specialize clothing and gear, lake you see at a ski resort, maybe one or two extra spare tires, even some machines are running vehicle type tires. It is like a fashion show. Soon we will see makeup mirrors for the ladies on the passenger side.
I say it again, you can see a city equipped UHV a mile away. A 4-up with one or two people in it. And they are all dressed up like they are going to dinner. And, don't say the four-ups is a kid thing, if you could ride an ATV would you want to sit in the back seat and watch Daddy? Buy your kid an ATV.

Excuse me for being an old grumpy man, but I have been riding ATV's since 1980 and I know change is coming. But, someday only the old timers will remember what true ATV trial riding was all about.
And like it is said, everyone has one, and that is my one opinion.
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Acoustictrout
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the Paiut
Reply #39 - 12/30/15 at 08:25:29
 
Perhaps some trails have been limited to 50 inches to artificially limit access and impact but I have not personally seen them.  What I have experienced is 50 inch gates at the trailheads indicates natural limitations down the trails like large closely spaced trees or rocks or perhaps tight turns that will stop a larger OHV that bypassed the gate.  Often wondered what a gate crasher does when he comes to one of these insurmountable barriers.
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If you don't get stuck in the mud once in a while you are spending too much time on pavement.
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deward
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the
Reply #40 - 08/21/16 at 11:19:58
 
Acoustictrout wrote on 12/30/15 at 08:25:29:
Perhaps some trails have been limited to 50 inches to artificially limit access and impact but I have not personally seen them.  What I have experienced is 50 inch gates at the trailheads indicates natural limitations down the trails like large closely spaced trees or rocks or perhaps tight turns that will stop a larger OHV that bypassed the gate.  Often wondered what a gate crasher does when he comes to one of these insurmountable barriers.


they do a 400 point turn, run over the obstacle, or reroute the trail to avoid the pinch point. They also cuss and have a tantrum over the fact that someone would make a trail so tight.
I was recently riding in southern Idaho on a 50" trail and observed the driver of a 4 seated can am attempting all of the above.
I was curious as to what the penalty was if caught, the best I could find was up to $5000 and 6 months in jail, maybe they feel it's worth the risk.
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Re: Clearing the air about 60" Trails on the
Reply #41 - 09/26/18 at 07:46:39
 
This is why you just need to have the best of both worlds.  Grin Got all my bases covered.
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